I can play tournaments tightly and make it to the last few tables or better but with barely enough chips to play with
I am suffering with less than ten times the blind.
What can I do to have a more comfortable stack of chips and have some leverage?
I am suffering with less than ten times the blind.
What can I do to have a more comfortable stack of chips and have some leverage?
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Re: tournament play
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 6:19 AMYou need to open up your game and be more aggressive in the mid- and late stages of a tournament. If you have fewer than ten big blinds left, your stack is critical and you should look for the first reasonable opportunity to get your chips in. (Most people wait 'til they have 3-4 BB left, but that's WAY too late.)
:Look for steal opportunities. Get your chips in first. -
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Re: tournament play
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 11:20 PMI understand reasonable opportunities. My last game I lost with pocket aces to someone flopping trip deuces and flopped a pair of kings to see the other guy get two pair tens and queens. -
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Re: tournament play
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 11:28 PMThat's poker. The question is, would you play those hands the same way 100 times given the opportunity? -
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Re: tournament play
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 1:57 PMIt all depends on your position, your estimated hand value, the callers and or betters in front of you, estimated callers and betters behind you, your chip stack, your opponents chip stack and their habits. Also are you pre flop, turn or river? What are the pot odds? Oh geez, if i were any good I'd write a book...
It is true that going all in takes away strategy and leaves it up to luck. That is powerful against better players. It's also very risky. Better to play tight and aggressive hands.
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Re: tournament play
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 3:13 PMTrue, but at around 10 blinds, there is no bet but all-in. At that stack level, all calculations around callers, estimated callers and the like boils down to "am I going all-in or folding?" -
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Re: tournament play
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 3:04 PMI remember hearing about a tourney won by someone who was down to his last chip. It's true that you have less options when you have 10 time s the blind. But, how many players are at the table (ten, eleven)? That's a lot of rounds, depending on the % small blind (usually half the big Blind), before you run out. Though I know that tournaments are designed to move the play along by increasing the blinds.
Another thing that is important is your opponents chip stacks. If your the short stack, you're gonna have a big ol target on you from the big stacks. Players with marginal hands are gonna call or put you all in.
Luck, your gut and how other's read you are gonna factor more when you're nearing the end. Hopefully you have played tight and most still fear what hand you have played. If you're now down to playing a marginal hand you don't want a lot of people calling. However, if you waited for that elusive monster, you've got em trapped and have great pot odds. -
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Re: tournament play
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 3:15 PMUsually there are 7-9 players at the table at this point, but that's variable.
When you're down to ten big blinds or less, your options really are just to jam or fold. If you raise less, you're committing yourself. If you bleed your way down to three or for big blinds, you have nearly zero fold equity, and even if you double up you're in extremely critical condition.
"f your the short stack, you're gonna have a big ol target on you from the big stacks. Players with marginal hands are gonna call or put you all in." That's exactly right! That's why you take a stand when you have enough chips left to have significant fold equity. -
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Re: tournament play
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 6:54 PM> That's exactly right! That's why you take a stand when you have enough chips left to have significant fold equity.
And remember, this isn't the movies. There isn't one clearly right thing to do and one clearly wrong thing to do...sometimes even playing face up, both players belong in the hand.
When you're short stacked and catch a small pocket pair, for example, it's usually best to push all-in, especially in mid-to-late position with no callers.
If your stack is significantly small, it's worth it for someone holding two overcards to call. They're behind on the hand, but the equity they gain from bumping you out of the tourney (at 6:5) is worth a lot more than the equity they lose by having you double up a small stack.
But that doesn't make it a mistake for you to push. You're ahead of most calling hands.
The hard thing for me with tournaments (I don't play many MTTs) is balancing the "slide into the money" vs the "get ahead or get another game" idea.
If you have a conservative style of play that gets into the low money half the time, that's not as good as getting you into the high money one quarter of the time. As with everything in poker, you have to decide if you'd rather win more money or win more often (hint: money is the right answer :) )
In a one table tournament, this is less of a factor. Third place is worth the time and there are few strategies that will chronically land you in third without giving you a shot at first or second. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: tournament play
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 11:35 AMI think we are essentially in agreement. There is no exact math or moment for this situation. You've considered a lot of same information I talked about.
I can't stress more about your position and how others have acted in front of you.
" especially in mid-to-late position with no callers. "
I too would go all in with a small pair here if I were in a similar situation but still depending on how other chip stacks have bet pre flop. -
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Re: tournament play
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 12:36 PMThere may not be "exact math" yet, but there's pretty-darn-close-to-exact math. More and more these situations are becoming solved problems, and people who have analyzed them will have an edge over those who haven't. -
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Re: tournament play
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 3:21 PMTrue. Math does play a big role. Players who rely on luck don't keep a healthy bankroll. But, "exact math" may work with odds and overall probability but no one can tell what cards you have or which cards are gonna boar. Also, unpredictable players upset all that math. -
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Re: tournament play
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 3:38 PMHow do unpredictable players upset the math?
What does "which cards are gonna boar" mean?
If I'm in the big blind and the small blind jams, there's a precise equilibrium solution for what hands I should call with. The inputs are the payout structure of the tournament, my stack size, the other stack sizes at the table, the number of players remaining, and the size of the blinds. The function will change slightly depending upon whether my opponent plays optimally or suboptimally from the small blind, but I can adjust for that based on his estimated jamming range. -
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Re: tournament play
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 3:51 PMYour playing the probability of your visible hand and the odds of what it will beat and what may come up on the board (sorry, not boar).
You can't know what other players have. You can read how they bet and how they've bet in the past. Unpredictable (perhaps wild/loose) players are going to throw all that probability to the wind. -
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Re: tournament play
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 11:40 PMYou can apply a range of hands to unpredictable players as well as players. The ranges become wider with goofball players, but you can always come up with an estimate of the range.
In later stages of smaller tournaments, much of the play is preflop jam-or-fold. Those are well-defined situations that are approaching solved. -
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Let me get off this thing
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 2:55 PMI'm no expert, Patti.
Honestly. I'm a novice. I've only played a couple of local tourneys (Oak's club tues.) and was out both times with good hands (better than a pair) in the first trimester. I play a lot more 1/2 and 2/4 (Texas no fold em) games here in Oakland and in Reno. There I do pretty well against seemingly veteran players. When I go to the 5/10 table I lose my bankroll real quick.
I've read more than a couple of books and watch Poker After Hours (Tourney's edit too much).
Well, as I said, If I was any good I'd write a book. But I do have a good head for abstract things and I read people real well. My math (for poker) is okay.
It seems you have a strategy that's sound. I agree with estimating the ranges of types of players. Later stages of the tournament? I'd love to actually get there. -
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Re: Let me get off this thing
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 3:17 PMFor balance, let me state my qualifications:
10+ years as a winning tournament player.
3 WSOP cashes out of maybe a dozen events that I've played (including one main event). I've cashed in the last three that I've played, and in the last one was chip leader for a while.
A brief stint (less than a year) as a professional poker player.
Over 10K SNGs under my belt, largely in the $50-150 buyin range.
I'm thanked in the acknowledgments for The Mathematics of Poker. I've spent a lot of time discussing poker with the authors, and I contributed a bit of research to the book.
I have a database of tens of thousands of tournaments that I use for research.
Oh, hell. this is inaccurate and incomplete, but here:
pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php
I'm not saying any of this to brag, but merely to give you enough background that you can decide how seriously to take me. I'd like to believe that I have a fairly solid grounding in tournament theory, but you're welcome to decide for yourself.
Oaks,eh? The last time I was there my picture was on the wall, though it's probably down now-- it was from a top-three finish in a recent Sunday tournament. -
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Re: Let me get off this thing
Tue, June 3, 2008 - 11:10 AMI don't mind you braggin when you got the nuts! Nice stats. Hey. I respect that kind of record.
I enjoy playing and talking about playing. It's a learning experience and can be fun if I keep it in perspective. I haven't wanted to be a professional poker player. I look at some of those guys an feel sorry for them. I have a life that's diverse and fun.
I don't see any point in exaggerating my abilities here. How am I going to learn? Now, at the table, I try to act like I know what I'm doing. Most times I play I do pretty well but sometime I make an obvious donkey mistake.
btw: Tues, Tourney buy-in is 50 (and a one time 25 fee) plus one rebuy. Sun Tourneys buy-in is 100 (plus fee) and re-buys. Up to the end of this month winners get a seat for the WSOP but that's over now.
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Re: Let me get off this thing
Tue, June 3, 2008 - 1:41 PMJust so we know who we all are:
Professional game developer, been playing poker seriously (ie no games that involve holding your hole card up to your forehead for other people to see or having to "do a shot" if you lose the low hand) for about 3 years, been winning for just shy of the last 2.
I play mostly $25 max NL hold 'em ring (I break even at this) and $10-$20 NL hold 'em SNGs (virtually all my winnings over the past 2 years came from here.)
I play almost exclusively online, mostly owing to work schedule. When things are lighter, I play at the Oaks and I'm always up for a trip to Vegas, baby!
After losing most of my initial buy in in the first year, I've been coming back and I'm now working on building my bankroll and advancing through the levels. I don't really track my "live" bankroll because I don't play live enough. I just play at the same limits as I do online, or slightly higher since I find that live players tend to be a little less savage than the Cylons who apparently play online.
My primary motive for learning to play poker is that I want to be prepared in case I ever need to thwart an international terrorist who has staked Armageddon on a hold 'em tournament. That's a longshot, I know, but after the Iraq war, I'm prepared to believe almost anything. -
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Re: Let me get off this thing
Wed, June 4, 2008 - 8:30 AMEveryone gets a bad beat. Even James Bond! -
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Re: Let me get off this thing
Wed, June 4, 2008 - 3:32 PM> Everyone gets a bad beat. Even James Bond!
Only when he's tied to the seatless chair. Talking about having your aces cracked. -
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Re: Let me get off this thing
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 9:27 AMPlayed a couple of small tourneys in Reno. Did pretty well 1st game but lost Kx Kx to a straight. I didn't see it coming. Hey! The guy had a two gapper and sucked out.
Second game I got impatient because I was didn't get any sleep. All in with a pair of aces with an open ended straight showing. I must have wanted to hit the sack.
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Re: tournament play
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 10:25 AMSome super agressive players like Daniel Negraneau and Phil Ivy subscribe to an "all or nothing early" type of approach that will either double you up fast or bust you out really early. It's not for every one, certainly not me! I would go with what Patti suggested, look for steal opportunities. Pick your spots!
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Re: tournament play
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 10:47 AMThis book speaks extensively on how to open up your game in these later stages of the tournament. The whole series is a great read.
www.amazon.com/Harrington...pd_bbs_sr_4
